Curse

pamelf · Sep 04, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

@ Pamelf By forced to PUG I meant those to whom PUG is the only option to finish given mission/area cause they are not able to do it with their guilds/heroes etc. Believe those people still exist. I think Gate of Madness is the place where is the biggest number of them. I will try to be more clear next time.

If someone is 'forced' to PUG then as you state they would still come under the category of PUGgers. That wouldn't change because they brought in 7 heroes. As the poster above me stated, if you can't handle H/H at the moment it's very unlikely you'd be able to handle 7 heroes. Thus my logic still stands. With or without the implementation of 7 heroes we will see very little difference in the way the community has divided itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no you just didnt get the point, just cause a lot of people say its good on guru does not mean its good

...and yet you are constantly trying to tell us that you're opinion is what's 'good' with the game. Lets let Anet decide what's good and what's bad, and lets keep our discussion to what the community wants.

sixofone · Sep 04, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

this helps my point imo, if you were to go up to any random person in guild wars and asked them if they wanted to nerf it im sure most people would have said no, does mean it didnt need the nerf but i think you get my point. Just cause a lot of people on guru or even in the game want something does not mean its good for the game

LOL - dude, I'm going to have to stop taking your troll bait... Here, you say that no matter how many people on guru or in the game want something doesn't make it good for the game, and then at the bottom of your post you say "people overwhelmingly liked ursan as well "maybe not on guru but in-game"

::shakes head::

Okay - so, just because 85% of the guru community wants 7 heroes doesn't make it good for the game. Can't say really as it is simply a matter of preference, not an objective reality.

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the connection between "bad for PUGs = bad for the game." Especially when so many people want to play the game with more heroes and not less. If you're going to argue that people will leave the game because "it's gotten so damn hard to PUG," I think you'll find a lot of people who either won't miss it, or be happy about not PUGging anymore.

Seriously - I'm trying to understand, here. I simply haven't heard a good argument that supports your position that what hurts PUGs is bad for the game - anymore, I suppose, than you are convinced by all the people who want more heroes to play is good for the game.

In all likelihood, its because neither case is true. Adding more usable heroes is neither "bad" not "good" for the game. It's simply another option that will appeal to some and frustrate others.

And (last point) this is only in one aspect of GW - PvE. The whole world of PvP is unchanged by this at all.

Shasgaliel · Sep 04, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

If someone is 'forced' to PUG then as you state they would still come under the category of PUGgers. That wouldn't change because they brought in 7 heroes. As the poster above me stated, if you can't handle H/H at the moment it's very unlikely you'd be able to handle 7 heroes. Thus my logic still stands. With or without the implementation of 7 heroes we will see very little difference in the way the community has divided itself.
wants.

I think it is not true and there were people in this thread claiming otherwise ("with 7 heores I will manage"). For example henchies do not have bonuses from your titles. Heroes do. So having 7 instead of 3 with LB or Vanguard bonuses does make a difference and does help for some at least. It is just my guess but I think the group who fails with 3 and will succeed with 7 is a non-empty one. How big it is I do not know I can only guess. But that group makes a difference for me at least.

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Lets let Anet decide what's good and bad

they alrdy have, guess what, they said no on 7heros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

LOL - dude, I'm going to have to stop taking your troll bait... Here, you say that no matter how many people on guru or in the game want something doesn't make it good for the game, and then at the bottom of your post you say "people overwhelmingly liked ursan as well "maybe not on guru but in-game"

i didnt get your point at all,

just cause people like something does not mean it good for the game when it comes to online RPGs like guild wars is what it was saying it you missed that

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

::shakes head::

its sticky D:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the connection between "bad for PUGs = bad for the game." Especially when so many people want to play the game with more heroes and not less. If you're going to argue that people will leave the game because "it's gotten so damn hard to PUG," I think you'll find a lot of people who either won't miss it, or be happy about not PUGging anymore.

people leave games like guild wars when they stop seeing/playing with other players.

eximiis · Sep 04, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

people leave games like guild wars when they stop seeing/playing with other players.

So intrude 7 heroes, no pug can be made and puggers quit for another game.

everyones happy ???

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

So intrude 7 heroes, no pug can be made and puggers quit for another game.

everyones happy ???

meh like it or not pugs make up a big part of this game. dont think any 1 would be happy, but if that did happen maybe the people that hated the pugs for no reason would start pugging lol ...

Inner Salbat · Sep 04, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

meh like it or not pugs make up a big part of this game. dont think any 1 would be happy, but if that did happen maybe the people that hated the pugs for no reason would start pugging lol ...

Nope I'd quit if I was forced to PuG, no ifs no buts no maybes out right permanent abandonment of the game and any future products of ArenaNet, and would forever more have nothing good to say about ArenaNet to anyone who might be thinking of buying a there games, heck I might even go so far as to picket game software store in the hope that people would not buy any of there software either, I'd certainly not recommended there software to my friends and word of mouth is still more powerful than advertising media.

Nereyda Shoaal · Sep 04, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

(...) people leave games like guild wars when they stop seeing/playing with other players.

I can't agree more with that.

I scribbled only couple words on previous page as I was busy.
Basicaly I play cRPG since middle 90's and what I was always missing is the system which we call nowadays MMORPG - being able to play RPG with other ppl in real time. With someone from the other side of the world. Or next door.

To be honest I'm fed up with this "I'm so perfect in GW, I don't want to play with n0000bs"
I DO miss times when doing one mission could take like 5 attempts. It was fun. F U N

I'm playing GW for almost 3 years now and I do love PUGs
My best PvE memories are from PUGs. Doing Hell's Precipe with 2/8. Abaddon's Gate (+masters) with 1 monk. DD 4/8. Or party of 5 monks capping SoJ in Mineral Springs with titan quest active
None of your dumb-as-hell heroes will give me any of this excitement
Any random person is better than any hero. The problem is the game is full of arrogant and lazy people who prefer to whine rather than learn someone how to agro properly (for example)

I play GW for the idea of MMORPG not 'cos it's so Goddamn perfect - best game in the world. Well it's not best game ever made, sorry to shatter your pink glasses

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Nope I'd quit if I was forced to PuG, no ifs no buts no maybes out right permanent abandonment of the game and any future products of ArenaNet, and would forever more have nothing good to say about ArenaNet to anyone who might be thinking of buying a there games, heck I might even go so far as to picket game software store in the hope that people would not buy any of there software either, I'd certainly not recommended there software to my friends and word of mouth is still more powerful than advertising media.

bye

if your going to leave cause you are forced to play a online game with other players i dont think any 1 will care. when poeple ask "why dont you like anet" all you will have to say its "i use to play this online RPG and they removed the the solo ability from the game the game so I had to play with other players so i left" leaving a game like guild war for that reason is retarded

Inner Salbat · Sep 04, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

bye

if your going to leave cause you are forced to play a online game with other players i dont think any 1 will care. when poeple ask "why dont you like anet" all you will have to say its "i use to play this online RPG and they removed the the solo ability from the game the game so I had to play with other players so i left" leaving a game like guild war for that reason is retarded

Too bad I could point to the false advertising of solo playing being on the box :P

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Too bad I could point to the false advertising of solo playing being on the box :P

with henchmen

eximiis · Sep 04, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Henchmen !!

that was the advertising for Prophetie. now we have faction with better hench, then nightfall with HEROES, then Eoth with more heroes and (super ?) hench.

Now it's time for 7 heores !!!!

R.Shayne · Sep 04, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

with henchmen

If you follow through with this then Henchmen should be able to go in Elite areas but not possible. So he does have a point when he says the box says solo play, but the actually product does not deliver. Don't even give me that bull about Henchmen not being ascended, they ascended next to me in Naphue Quarter and in Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

nope, guild/pug imo

What? That made no sense what so ever in reply to the fact that the game is not fully henchable as stated on the box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cause it will kill pugging even more, at least you still have pugs in places like ToA and EoTN, if you were able to have 7heros they would die out in no time. This game has become to solo already theres no need for make it more solo

The only thing I ever see in ToA is FARMING PUGS and guess what, these will never be replaced with h/h group because Heroes can't do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cause it guru, if the poll was "Who wants to add in a skill called Hand of God that kills all NPCs on the map" and 5:1 people voted yes, does this mean its good for the game?

Why even resort to such a poor argument? Too many assumptions and no fact to back it up so try again.

As stated before, PUG are dead and PuG are what killed them. When players refuse to learn and continued to play at a level that is below Henchmen level they killed it. Hero did not kill it, poor players killed it.

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

If you follow through with this then Henchmen should be able to go in Elite areas but not possible.

nope, guild/pug imo

Bryant Again · Sep 04, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

but is it near what it use to be, before NF?

No. As I said, the game is old and huge. Heroes are not "enemy #1" here, and many don't consider them an enemy at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

are you saying im a nice guy?

No. I'm saying experiences vary. Just because you yourself have had an easy time with pugs cannot be applied to everyone's experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If people leave cause they have to play with pugs why didnt so many people leave before heros?

They had no other way to enjoy the game. Now, everyone's happy. Pugs pug, soloer's solo. Welcome to Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yea and you can, with henchmen, but adding 7 heros is not going to help the game at all.

Based on the facts of PvE skills, that the PvE skills all got buffed, that heroes *cannot* use PvE skills, that Heroes have unreliable and unpredictable AI, that you have to have quite a lot of experience to set up hero builds, that you have to work a lot with flagging and other behavior - I know longer believe that 7 heroes will be detrimental to the game. 3 heroes + henchmen are already greatly usuable, and a lot of people aren't even doing *that*.

All in all, while none of us are in any position to say how easy Guild Wars is, I think it's safe to say that the majority of the players in Guild Wars aren't very good at the game. Because of that, most won't find heroes too appealing.

All in all, we have no idea what will "truly happen" if 7 heroes became released. Seeing as people already find 3 heroes a bit overwhelming and all of what I've said above, I highly doubt they'd be all over a full party of builds they themselves have to put together (not to mention all the skills they'd have to unlock).

eximiis · Sep 04, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

meh like it or not pugs make up a big part of this game. dont think any 1 would be happy, but if that did happen maybe the people that hated the pugs for no reason would start pugging lol ...

pug make up a big part of this game yet its already impossible to form a pug in 80% of the area of the game !!

imo, 50% goes solo, 45% goes Guild/friends (with a % that solo wehn they find nobody in the guild) and a little 5% that pugs in SPECIFIC area. 50% of the 5% runs with mending or meleemancer !

DreamWind · Sep 04, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They had no other way to enjoy the game. Now, everyone's happy. Pugs pug, soloer's solo. Welcome to Guild Wars.

Not neccessarily. There are probably a lot of people who want to play with others but can't because everybody is playing with heros instead.

Its almost like the whole idea with putting heros into Hero's Ascent. Good idea in theory and it was used a lot, but it was a bad idea in practice.

Personally I could give a crap less about this entire debate. Give us 50 heros all with Ursan for all I care...that would make tons of people happy. I just think some of the reasons given for allowing max heros are bad.

Bryant Again · Sep 04, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

pug make up a big part of this game yet its already impossible to form a pug in 80% of the area of the game !!

Also note the factors of why it's hard to find a pug, ex: discrimination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Not neccessarily. There are probably a lot of people who want to play with others but can't because everybody is playing with heros instead.

Its almost like the whole idea with putting heros into Hero's Ascent. Good idea in theory and it was used a lot, but it was a bad idea in practice.

Personally I could give a crap less about this entire debate. Give us 50 heros all with Ursan for all I care...that would make tons of people happy. I just think some of the reasons given for allowing max heros are bad.

Everyone? Can't agree too well with there. The average person is going to find more value from henchmen rather than heroes, but that's for a henchmen thread : P

Agree whole heartedly for a lot of the reasoning you see here, though. You don't need 7 heroes to beat the game and the hardest areas, you need 7 heroes if you *want* to have a more personalized party. Hence, it's not a need and instead a want.

also: poo on you >: ( you just *had* to post a sec before me. Now not only do I have to make a huge edit with another quote I lose a valuable +1 :_ (

JDRyder · Sep 04, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No. I'm saying experiences vary. Just because you yourself have had an easy time with pugs cannot be applied to everyone's experience.

agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Based on the facts of PvE skills, that the PvE skills all got buffed, that heroes *cannot* use PvE skills, that Heroes have unreliable and unpredictable AI, that you have to have quite a lot of experience to set up hero builds, that you have to work a lot with flagging and other behavior - I know longer believe that 7 heroes will be detrimental to the game. 3 heroes + henchmen are already greatly usuable, and a lot of people aren't even doing *that*.

not 100% sure on what your saying here but, I dont think heros not being able to use pve skills is a big deal, I only use 2 Pve skills that i can think of off the top of my head, [cry of pain]["Save Yourselves!"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

imo, 50% goes solo, 45% goes Guild/friends (with a % that solo wehn they find nobody in the guild) and a little 5% that pugs in SPECIFIC area. 50% of the 5% runs with mending or meleemancer !

if thats true theres more bad people that solo or guild/friend than bad pugs.

kilkelo · Sep 04, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I say yes. GW is dying and it's getting harder by the day to find people to group with you in elite areas so having a full team of heroes would allow players to play in any area they wish. Otherwise they'll get bored of the game and leave.